Compiled by TechFlow
Guest: Noah Tweedale, Co-founder of Pump.fun
Moderator: Laura Shin
Podcast source: Unchained
Original title: How Pump.fun Plans to Beat Social Media Giants and Win Beyond Crypto
Air Date: September 11, 2025
Summary of key points
Pump.fun achieved breakout revenue in a short period of time and successfully held a highly anticipated token sale. However, the platform struggled with the rise of competitors, declining token prices, and the proliferation of bots issuing tokens. The platform also faced criticism as a "crypto casino." Faced with these challenges, the team decided to implement a series of new strategies, including a dynamic creator fee model, providing liquidity support to the community, and a major push into live streaming and mobile applications.
In this episode, co-founder Noah Tweedale shares the vision for Project Ascend, explaining how the team uses innovative mechanisms to align creators with the community, why buybacks aren't a long-term business model, and how they're addressing the proliferation of bots and user losses. Pump.fun also develops a competitive strategy against mainstream platforms like YouTube, Twitch, and TikTok, striving to carve out a niche between crypto apps and traditional social platforms.
Summary of highlights
We don't want to be just a crypto company, but a company that can have a profound impact on the world, both through financial and social means.
Pump.fun is all about building great products, because the quality of the end product is what determines success or failure. Whether in the cryptocurrency space or elsewhere, the winners are always those who outperform their competitors in every way.
If you check out Pump.fun right now, some people are making $150 for just 12 minutes of live streaming. While that might not seem like a lot, considering they only have 10-15 viewers, it's a significant income. This level of income is practically unattainable on traditional platforms; it's a 100x increase.
Pumpfun doesn't have a livestream discovery algorithm; it ranks livestreams based entirely on market capitalization. The higher the quality of the livestream, the more attention it receives, and the higher the attention, the higher its market capitalization.
Our ideal target audience is TikTok content creators, not Instagram live streamers, because TikTok content is generally healthier, more interactive, and easier to attract audiences.
Each generation creates its own financial system. For example, the baby boomers established the modern banking system, and the Silicon Valley generation developed new financial tools. Today, the rise of cryptocurrency is the result of the innovation of the younger generation, and cryptocurrency will achieve long-term success in the future.
I think the main problem for Pumpfun is discoverability, that is, how to find the best coins and implement a smooth operation experience on the mobile app or website.
I don't want users to lose money. On Pump, you know you're buying a specific token, and even though you might not like it, it's not lying to you. I think that's great, and I enjoy that transparency.
Rather than developing a fixed roadmap, the Pump.fun team prioritizes rapid iteration and continuous optimization, while maintaining close communication with users to understand their real needs. We aim to build a comprehensive platform tailored to the needs of young people.
Real competitors should be companies that have maintained a significant market share for a long time. I don't think Zora or Believe pose a threat to us.
I believe gambling and pornography are the worst industries, and I want to make it clear that Pump is a trading product. When you trade on Pump, it is a skill-based activity, not gambling.
Human nature hasn't changed much in the past three thousand years, so it's difficult to create a completely new behavior pattern. However, by combining and innovating existing behaviors, some new forms of expression can be formed.
The past few months have been turbulent for Pump.fun
Laura:
Today's guest is Noah Tweedell, co-founder of Pump.fun. Pump.fun has been a huge success in the cryptocurrency space over the past few years, becoming one of the fastest-growing companies. You recently reached $840 million in revenue and raised $1.2 billion through your ICO. Even more impressive is that you're aiming to go beyond crypto and compete with social media giants. However, I'd like to talk more about recent developments. While you've experienced rapid growth over the past few years, this summer has been particularly turbulent, with many ups and downs, particularly surrounding the events surrounding your ICO.
Your platform lost some market share, and the token price plummeted. Recently, however, Pump.fun has regained its dominance, with over 80% of tokens minted on your platform. It feels like you're on track for recovery, with many new announcements. How are you feeling about all of this at this point? What are your thoughts on recent events?
Noah:
That's a great question. From the outside, the past few months have certainly seemed crazy. But Pump.fun was founded before 2023, so we've experienced many ups and downs. We've faced crises where we might not be able to continue operating, and we've also had moments where we've experienced tremendous momentum. For us, this kind of change has become the norm.
From the outside, these events may seem extreme, but for our internal team, they were practically a daily reality. Every day brought new challenges and disruptions to address. This summer was particularly unique, as our entire development team was completely focused on building the platform to support the ICO, a time-consuming and complex undertaking. Our platform was virtually the only system capable of fully supporting the entire ICO process, so it was a very busy time.
In the two weeks leading up to the token launch, our team worked almost around the clock to ensure there were no system vulnerabilities. Meanwhile, Let's Bonk was gaining market share, but our focus was entirely on ICO preparations. After the token launch, my co-founders, Alon and Dylan, and I decided to take a week off, having barely taken a vacation for the past year and a half, working every week. This short break gave us a break and helped us refocus and move forward with our next steps.
Creators can earn more income through live streaming
Laura:
From the outside, it's clear to see the recent dynamics at Pump.fun. So, let's talk about some of your new announcements. You recently launched the "Send Project," which, according to the announcement, consists of multiple components, but its core goal is to connect creators more closely with their communities. A key component is the dynamic fee model. You just released Dynamic Fees v1, a tiered creator fee structure on Pump Swap—the higher the token's market capitalization, the lower the corresponding creator fee.
Could you elaborate on what problems you hope to solve with this model?
Noah:
This actually touches on a larger issue: Pump.fun's positioning. We don't want to be just a crypto company. We've made this clear in our announcement. While we will continue to attract users from the crypto space and expand within that market, our goal is to become a company that can have a profound global impact , both financially and socially. This is the direction we're striving for.
If you look at major social media platforms today—Instagram, Twitter, Twitch (which can also be considered a social platform), TikTok, and others—their success stems primarily from their incentive mechanisms for creators. These mechanisms incentivize creators to continue producing content, much like YouTube does. Our goal is to stand out in this space and offer a solution that goes far beyond existing platforms. Our dynamic fee model is designed to incentivize content creators, making it easy for them to start creating and earning higher returns than on other platforms.
For example, we've recently noticed some interesting data—a significant increase in streaming activity and rapid growth in direct messaging interactions on the mobile app. This shows that creators are actively engaging with the platform's ecosystem. If you check out Pump.fun right now, some people are making $150 for just 12 minutes of streaming. While this may not seem like a huge amount, considering they only have 10 to 15 viewers, it's a significant income. This level of income is almost unattainable on traditional platforms; it's a 100-fold increase.
These live streams are often just simple chats, without any complex or expensive production. I find this really interesting, especially for emerging creators, as this model allows them to focus on creating high-quality content. We hope that through this mechanism, we can help more creators start small and gradually grow into influential large-scale creators.
Laura:
So basically you want to provide enough financial incentives to give those unknown creators the opportunity to keep working hard and strive for breakthroughs.
Noah:
That's true, but it's not just about financial incentives. For example, if you're a content creator on Instagram, even with hundreds of millions of users, earning income with just 10,000 followers is still incredibly difficult. At Pump.fun, we aim to empower creators to maintain their livelihoods while building their brands through higher cash rewards.
In addition, another advantage of Pump.fun is "discoverability". Compared with other platforms, we have a relatively small number of streamers, which means that creators are more likely to be discovered by the audience. For example, there are only 300 to 500 streamers online on the platform at the same time, while there are 5 million potential crypto viewers. Therefore, the probability of success for creators is much higher than on traditional platforms. Of course, as the platform grows and the network effect strengthens, this advantage may gradually weaken, but I think now is the golden age for creators. It's like when Instagram or Tinder were first launched, users could easily get attention or matches. Today, these platforms have become over-commercialized, and are more about getting users to buy paid services rather than creating truly valuable content. We hope to avoid this situation so that creators can truly benefit from the fruits of their labor.
How does Pump.fun recommend tokens for live streaming?
Laura:
I'm curious because when I landed on the Pump.fun homepage, frankly, I know I'm not your primary target user, but I wanted to understand more about content discoverability, or how your algorithm works. As I browsed the platform, I saw a lot of different content, like some live streams where someone was just talking on the phone, promoting a certain token. I wondered, why is that content being recommended? How do you decide what content gets featured? Can you talk about how creators can get their content discovered?
Noah:
Regarding the primary discovery algorithm for live streaming, the tokens currently displayed on the homepage are ranked based on market capitalization. In reality, a live streaming discovery algorithm doesn't exist; it's purely ranked by market capitalization . Therefore, we haven't invested much resources in this area. However, our theory is that the higher the quality of the live stream, the more attention it will receive, and the more attention it gets, the higher its market capitalization. I believe this is how cryptocurrency works, and this model will continue to influence the entire new social finance landscape.
Strategies for competing with YouTube and Twitch
Laura:
As a group, how do you plan your strategy when trying to challenge some of the mainstream social media platforms? How do you break through the limitations of the cryptocurrency space? Do you think the strategy of bringing in moderately well-known influencers is working?
Noah:
In reality, bringing in livestreamers isn't our core strategy. While we've experimented with partnering with some livestreamers, over 99% of livestreaming on Pump is user-initiated, primarily through word-of-mouth and user adoption. We've observed that when users enjoy livestreaming on our platform, we proactively reach out to them and encourage them to create more content. For example, we've invited livestreamers to participate in our funded activities, such as traveling to Africa to photograph zebras in the wild. This approach not only creates unique experiences but also inspires higher-quality content.
Our focus isn't simply attracting livestreamers, but rather opening up our platform to encourage user-generated content. If a user is interested in livestreaming, they can contact us, and we have a dedicated livestreaming team to support them. To help them get started, we've invested over $250,000 in livestreaming equipment, such as webcams and microphones. This equipment makes it easier for them to begin livestreaming. We prefer a bottom-up approach, encouraging users to actively use our platform out of passion.
Our ideal target audience is TikTok content creators, not Instagram live streamers, because TikTok content is generally healthier, more interactive, and easier to attract audiences.
Laura:
With all your social media activity, why did you decide to focus on live streaming?
Noah:
This is based on observations of user behavior. We've noticed that many users are broadcasting small live streams in Telegram groups. Even with only a dozen or so people watching, the interactions are incredibly engaging. Therefore, we decided to add live streaming to the platform. This decision-making process is similar to how we introduced the DM feature. Users within and outside the crypto community, especially venture capitalists and traders, are using Telegram. If we can provide features that better meet the needs of cryptocurrency users and build an ecosystem designed specifically for crypto traders, that would be truly unique.
Our goal is to observe user behavior and build a better product for them based on that behavior. This is the core idea of our design strategy.
Laura:
So, it's a way to digitally interact with friends in real time, even though everyone might not be in the same place, but they're all actually online?
Noah:
That's right. I think this approach is especially important for younger generations, who are almost always online. Pump's primary user base is 18-24 year olds, who are tired of traditional zero-sum games, finding them unsocial and uninteresting. As Alan said, Pump's goal is to be the most fun place on the internet, and I wholeheartedly agree with that philosophy.
Laura:
When you talk about entering the sports and gaming sectors, how do you find users who naturally flock to the platform and cultivate them to become content creators in these areas?
Noah:
This isn't a simple user-selection process. We focus on those who consistently livestream on Pump, maintaining communication with them and offering support. For example, much like TikTok, we organize groups and provide training and incentives to livestreamers, like free food, and even host livestreaming boot camps to help them learn how to produce high-quality content. This is a natural progression.
We also strive to understand the needs of different types of streamers. For example, a gaming streamer might prefer a subscription-based monetization model, or might want to add emoji interaction features or even support multiple simultaneous streams. By building relationships with these streamers, we gradually understand their true needs, rather than asking them directly what they want. This approach helps us optimize platform functionality while meeting user expectations.
Will Pump.fun's buybacks become programmatic?
Laura:
So far, you've conducted $75 million in buybacks, which is obviously very exciting for the community. However, I've noticed that these buybacks are currently voluntary and not conducted through a fixed process. Do you have plans to make these buybacks programmatic?
Noah:
This is a question worth exploring further. If we look at the current market, very few buybacks are fully programmatic, but I'm not sure Hyperliquid's buybacks are programmatic in the sense that everyone claims they are. I believe that if adjustments to these buyback mechanisms are needed, they can be made quickly. That's the first point.
When deciding on our buyback method, we looked to successful companies in the cryptocurrency space. For example, Binance used 50% of its trading fees to buy back BNB tokens in its early stages. Hyperliquid, on the other hand, used 100% of its revenue for buybacks. I believe these models are worth learning from. Looking back on our experience, we initially set a 25% buyback ratio, but later adjusted it to 100%. Pump.fun's goal is to learn from leading companies in the crypto space and emulate their successes.
Laura:
This is interesting to me. You raised a significant amount of capital, sold tokens to users, and are now using the funds to buy back the tokens that users already purchased. This operation may seem a bit unusual due to its speed.
Noah:
From a business perspective, this strategy may not be optimal. However, in the crypto space, whether it's Pump.fun, Hyperliquid, Binance, or other centralized exchanges, buyback mechanisms inherently have limitations. Imagine Amazon distributing 20% or 100% of its revenue to shareholders as dividends each year. This is clearly unrealistic. Such a model cannot support a company's global scale, especially in the cryptocurrency market, and this is especially true in the case of the Pump.fun token.
I believe it's important to understand effective practices in the crypto market. Many people misunderstand how equity and token distribution work. Therefore, buybacks are an effective way to convey confidence to the market and demonstrate the potential value of tokens. Showing users that buybacks are actually happening strengthens their trust.
Every dollar spent on buybacks can be justified, depending on your perspective. These funds could have been used in other areas like marketing, acquisitions, hiring, or employee bonuses—investments that would have helped the company achieve greater long-term growth. However, Pump.fun is in a unique position with ample capital reserves, so how we allocate these resources depends entirely on our strategic choices.
LetsBonk grabs market share, but it won't last
Laura:
Why do you think LetsBonk was able to capture Pump.fun's market share in just a few months?
Noah:
I think this is a very common phenomenon. Looking back at Pump.fun's history, we've seen similar situations happen many times. For example, Dex Screener initially launched a competitor to ours, PUBG (PlayerUnknown's Battlegrounds), and later Justin Sun attempted to launch a competitor to Pump.fun, along with other similar projects.
These competitors often attract users by offering substantial incentives, such as higher returns on token purchases. Traders familiar with the workings of financial markets often choose these platforms because they offer greater profits. However, this phenomenon is often short-lived. Once the incentives are lifted, users and market share typically return quickly.
This actually reflects Pump.fun's core positioning. We are not a company that relies on short-term partnerships, nor do we manipulate the market through unfair means. Our core is to create excellent products, because the quality of the final product is the key to success . If you look closely at Pump.fun's unique design features, such as the user interface, live streaming function, mobile app, and private messaging function, these are advantages that other products cannot replicate.
While these features may seem insignificant individually, when combined, they create a more competitive product that keeps users on the platform long-term. Therefore, when facing competition, we always focus on optimizing our product. Whether in the cryptocurrency space or elsewhere, the products that ultimately win are those that outperform their competitors in every way.
We prioritize user experience throughout our development process, and external noise and interference are unimportant to us. While we may have lost some market share in the short term, we understand this isn't the end of the story. We've experienced similar situations many times before, and we remain focused on building a better product; that's what matters most. Frankly, the recent distraction was primarily due to the immense pressure of the token launch, but we will quickly adjust and get back on track.
Apps like Zora or Believe are not real competitors
Laura:
Do you consider Zora a competitor to Pump Fund?
Noah:
No, I don't think so. I'm a huge fan of the Zora team; they've built some really great products. Their goal isn't just to serve traditional cryptocurrency users, but to design solutions for a broader community of creators. I think that's really unique, and their mobile app embodies that philosophy beautifully.
Each team has its own distinct development direction. I believe the key lies in maintaining a firm belief and consistently executing. Our vision is very user-centric, and we truly understand their needs. We communicate with users daily to uncover their challenges and needs.
I believe a potential risk is that if we try to predict future user needs five years in advance while ignoring the real problems of current users, this could lead to the failure of the entire project. Therefore, it's most important to focus on the users who are currently using the platform, rather than focusing too much on the users who may become users in a few years. Only by addressing the needs of current users can we lay a solid foundation for future growth.
Laura:
Regarding competitors in the crypto space, how do you view Pump.fun compared to other crypto players like Zora and Believe? Can you talk about the market segment that Pump.fun is aiming to address and the brand image you're aiming to cultivate?
Noah:
I don't consider these companies to be our true competitors. They might enter the market briefly and attract some attention, but they usually fade quickly. True competitors are those that can maintain a significant market share over the long term, and we haven't seen any of those yet. Therefore, I don't consider Zora or Believe to be a threat to us.
We're more focused on larger companies within and outside the crypto industry. I believe our true competitors are those with significant scale and long-term influence. For example, Pump.fun's revenue is already approaching that of some of the world's largest centralized exchanges. I even believe our quarterly profits may have surpassed those of companies like Coinbase. This is particularly noteworthy given our team size of only approximately 65 employees.
If you analyze the current market, you'll see that we're very different from these smaller companies. While these companies may occasionally capture a small portion of the market, from an investor's perspective, that's not the point. If you're a Pump.fun user, you should be focusing on how we can grow our $2 million in daily revenue to $20 million, or even $50 million.
Our core strategy is to focus on protocol self-improvement rather than simply increasing profit margins. For example, we're more focused on creating a self-evident product that can achieve 10x or even 100x growth. This means we're always looking for new opportunities to drive exponential growth, rather than relying solely on existing users to increase revenue. This mindset allows us to continuously break new ground and open up new market opportunities while maintaining the innovation and appeal of our product.
I hope to create an application that changes the world, rather than pursuing small goals.
Laura:
Noah, why did you want to build an app that could change the world instead of focusing on smaller goals?
Noah:
I'm not particularly concerned with market share. I believe that focusing on these short-term goals is not the purpose of our existence. We are more interested in exploring how to drive long-term growth in specific areas like virtual reality. I'm more focused on whether we can truly create products with lasting impact than on market share and revenue growth.
Our goal is to build a company that can have a significant impact in the cryptocurrency space. Even with current industry giants like Coinbase and Binance, I don't think they've truly achieved global influence. Take Coinbase, for example. Their product is primarily a Bitcoin wallet. While its functionality is stable, it hasn't seen much innovation.
I hope we can become a company like Apple or some social media platforms, whose products are used by hundreds of millions of people every day and have truly changed people's lives. We don't want to be limited to small goals in the cryptocurrency field, but look at how to create products that can have an impact on a global scale.
While we will develop some traditional crypto products, our core goal is to change the world. We hope to continue working hard for decades to come and truly impact society. Therefore, our approach from the outset was not to build a crypto-native company, but to create a company that can have a global impact.
Does Pump.fun prioritize specific user groups?
Laura:
Does Pump.fun prioritize specific user groups? For example, do you prioritize creators or traders? How do you segment your user groups?
Noah:
There's no such priority. I think current social media platforms, like TikTok, don't clearly favor content creators over consumers. The reality is that the line between the two isn't clear, but rather, algorithms combine them, and that's the beauty of it. Algorithms intertwine consumers and content creators, creating a connected marketplace.
So, I think this is a very complex problem: how to create a two-sided market that includes users in the crypto space while also incorporating cutting-edge elements like Robinhood, Twitch, and TikTok. I don't think it's something that can be solved by clicking a button, but rather by rapidly iterating on small, incremental improvements of 1% per day.
Areas the team focused on improving in the application
Laura:
Noah, what areas is your team focusing on improving within the app? What do you think are the biggest challenges Pump.fun faces right now?
Noah:
I think the main issue is discoverability, that is, how to find the best coins and achieve a smooth operation experience on the mobile app or website. This is a very important issue and a core part of product design that cannot be ignored.
We're also working to clearly define user needs and the company's overall goals. User needs and company goals are inextricably linked. If we consistently prioritize user needs, even if our business temporarily experiences losses or stagnation, as long as our users are satisfied, we will ultimately achieve long-term success. Therefore, we prioritize listening to user feedback and understanding the challenges they face. These are key priorities for us.
Laura:
I noticed you've taken the first steps toward community takeovers and adjusted your fee structure. This seems to be an effort to encourage users to focus not just on short-term gains but on building more lasting, impactful communities. Do you agree with this?
Noah:
I completely agree. I want the coin to perform well, as that's the best outcome for everyone. This will improve the platform's performance, benefit the users who buy these coins, and ultimately lead to global success. We've seen many coins perform well during major events, demonstrating the strength of large communities and the positive impact these coins have on the ecosystem as a whole.
We do hope that the larger coins will perform better, and the effects will be more significant. Regarding the CTO concept, our original intention was to provide users with more options. For example, if a developer leaves their project and another community wants to take over and support the coin, we hope to provide tools to help them smoothly take over and continue development.
Of course, this isn't a simple problem. We're working hard to address these challenges, and like any other aspect of our product, this requires continuous iteration and optimization. We'll continue to listen to user feedback and make adjustments to ensure our product meets user needs while driving progress across the ecosystem.
How Pump.fun builds interoperability with the broader crypto ecosystem
Laura:
How does Pump.fun achieve interoperability with the broader crypto ecosystem ? I've noticed that a lot of token discovery actually happens on other platforms, such as through bots, wallet token pushes, or DEX screeners, rather than on the Pump.fun homepage or app. How do you plan to attract more users to use Pump.fun directly?
Noah:
Currently, some token discovery and trading activity occurs externally to Pump.fun. However, I believe this is a strength, not a weakness. This openness is what makes Pump.fun unique. Unlike closed ecosystems like Twitter, Instagram, and Snapshot, Pump.fun allows users to transact and consume content directly on its front-end. Furthermore, our mobile app and front-end platform also enjoy significant user activity.
From an infrastructure perspective, this openness opens up new possibilities for Pump.fun, meaning users can complete transactions through trading terminals on other platforms. Meanwhile, centralized and decentralized exchanges (DEXs) are constantly introducing new features, making Pump.fun part of the broader crypto ecosystem. Whenever a new platform launches a token based on Pump.fun, it can be discovered and used by users in multiple venues, further strengthening the network effect.
The advantage of this interoperability is that the entire ecosystem is open and interconnected, rather than isolated like traditional Web 2 platforms. While this openness does present some challenges, for Pump.fun, this is more of a feature than a bug. This allows us to not only grow collaboratively with the broader crypto ecosystem, but also expand user choice and enhance our platform's influence.
How teams can address the issue of bots issuing tokens
Laura:
How does the team address the issue of bots launching tokens? I noticed that Coinbase executive Connor Grogan tweeted in July that most token launches on Pump.fun and other platforms are actually operated by bots. According to statistics, top accounts launch a new token every three minutes on average. This reminds me of the current influx of bot-generated information on crypto Twitter. How do you address this?
Noah:
This is a natural phenomenon. As more and more real users begin using products like Pump.fun, bots will follow. This is inevitable on any open platform. As I've mentioned before, we need to be particularly concerned about preventing users from losing money by purchasing tokens issued by bots. This situation is similar to the bots that spread misinformation on Twitter, which is obviously something we want to avoid.
However, directly confronting bots isn't the best solution. It's a difficult battle to win, and even tech giants with hundreds of thousands of employees can't completely eliminate them. Therefore, our focus is on providing users with effective tools to help them identify the origin of tokens, whether they were issued by bots or created by real users. This ability to identify tokens is crucial and closely linked to optimizing our platform's algorithms. By improving our algorithms, we can better help users discover high-quality content while mitigating potential risks.
Laura:
So you don’t think bot tokens are a problem?
Noah:
I believe all content has value to some degree, as long as it doesn't harm users. In fact, bot-generated content can sometimes be entertaining, personal, and even viral, like the popular online memes we see today. Currently, approximately half of all content worldwide is generated by AI, and this trend is only expected to grow.
Therefore, a complete ban on bot tokens is not a realistic solution. We need to prioritize user needs and help them identify and avoid trading these tokens. For example, we can optimize our algorithms to provide users with clearer recommendations and help them avoid bot tokens. This is where we will focus our efforts.
Attempting to directly ban bot tokens or prevent their spread is not only extremely difficult but also likely to lead to further complex confrontations. Instead, we should focus on providing services to our users, helping them identify and select truly worthy investment opportunities. This approach is more aligned with Pump.fun's open and user-centric philosophy and better addresses this challenge.
Are you worried about a large number of users losing money?
Laura:
Are you concerned about a large number of users losing money on their investments? Many people have mentioned that most people haven't made a profit on their investments in meme tokens and Pump.fun. According to recent data, approximately 60% of users are losing money. Do you think this is a problem that needs to be addressed, or do you think it's just a normal part of investing?
Noah:
We certainly don't want our users to lose money. This is not an ideal outcome for either them or us. Therefore, we are constantly working to avoid this from happening.
However, this question needs to be viewed in a broader context. If you compare Pump.fun's profit-to-loss ratio to the win-to-loss ratio of perpetual contract trading, I believe Pump.fun performs better. Even if you look at spot trading data for the top 100 tokens, you'll find that their returns on investment are likely lower.
There are many reasons for losses. For example, some project founders engage in opaque or even confusing operations, something I've witnessed firsthand. Furthermore, the involvement of numerous venture capital firms in these projects further complicates matters. One of the reasons we developed Pump.fun was to address these issues. In the past, when you purchased a token, you might not have known the founders behind it, and project information was often hidden. Even worse, when these founders sold their tokens, users often suffered losses.
On Pump, you know what you're buying. You're buying a specific token, and even though you might not like it, it's not lying to you, which I find really beautiful. I enjoy that transparency.
How is mobile usage different from desktop usage on Pump.fun?
Laura:
I wanted to ask about the mobile app you launched last winter. I'm curious how user usage on mobile compares to desktop, and what's the approximate ratio of mobile to desktop usage?
Noah:
Of course, we can discuss this. The biggest difference between mobile and desktop is user retention. We've found that mobile retention is significantly higher. This is because mobile is not only a convenient trading tool, but also integrates wallet functionality and possesses certain social attributes, forming a closed ecosystem. This excites me because mobile apps are more easily shared and more widely shared.
While this isn't absolute, from a front-end usage perspective, I estimate that mobile accounts for about 25% of our activity. In fact, our current development focus is gradually shifting towards mobile.
Because we felt like competing on desktop was a bit of a losing battle. Everyone was doing it, especially the big companies and centralized exchanges like Coinbase. When it came to large amounts of money, these platforms were doing a lot of their operations on desktop. I thought that was a problem because it inherently limited our growth, whereas mobile offered us much greater growth potential, which was what we really wanted to pursue.
How Pump.fun handles regulatory and compliance issues
Laura:
I'm curious. The UK Financial Conduct Authority has stated that Pump.fun does not have a license to operate in the UK. Generally speaking, laws regarding online gambling and casinos can vary across jurisdictions. I'd like to understand how you approach these regulatory and compliance issues, and how you address them strategically and otherwise.
Noah:
This is an issue we take very seriously. We have assembled a large legal team, including in-house legal experts and multiple external advisors. Our goal is to remain vigilant and ensure strict compliance with relevant regulations in every jurisdiction. If we identify any areas where adjustments are necessary, we will act swiftly to implement them.
Compliance is of paramount importance to us. Conducting business in a manner that could potentially violate regulations is not only pointless but also negatively impacts the company's long-term growth and the market reputation of our products. Regarding the regulatory gaps you mentioned, we are deeply concerned. Whenever we identify issues, we make adjustments or address them to ensure they don't recur. Therefore, compliance is a critical priority for us.
Insist that Pump.fun is a trading product, not a gambling tool
Laura:
Are you interested in entering this gaming segment?
Noah:
I think gambling and pornography are the worst industries, and I want to be clear that Pump is a trading product. When you trade on Pump, it's a skill-based activity, not gambling. If you focus on gambling, the content will be extremely boring; you'll just be watching people playing slot machines, which is not what you want. You want to see people doing interesting things, or creators like some of the biggest YouTubers, and that's the activity we're trying to incentivize.
However, this doesn't stop us from experimenting with different market segments. While we haven't entered the online gambling space, we are looking at different areas like sports and gaming. We run various tests to see what works and what doesn't, gaining a deeper understanding of user psychology and usage. So, it's a process of A/B testing to identify effective market segments, then expanding on those we believe or believe will be most successful. We've observed that real-life content (IRL) and related live events are performing very well.
Laura:
I wanted to ask, because I know there's been some criticism of Pump.fun and similar platforms, like some calling it a "meme casino." How do you respond to that criticism?
Noah:
I believe much of the criticism is based on misunderstanding or a lack of understanding. If these critics truly took the time to research our platform, or even experience it for themselves, they might see its value. Many of these criticisms come from older generations who may have made their fortunes through Ethereum or Bitcoin, but they don't necessarily understand Pump's core philosophy. To them, Pump might simply be a meme platform, but in reality, that classification doesn't fully reflect our essence.
The younger generation is creating platforms with immense potential and influence, and Pump is one of them. I believe we are one of the most successful teams of entrepreneurs under the age of 24. If these facts aren't enough to reassess our value, perhaps more time will be needed to understand.
Laura:
From a personal perspective, do you tend to consider yourself a cryptocurrency entrepreneur, a meme promoter, a streaming innovator, or a social media developer? Since Pump touches on multiple fields, what is your preference among these different identities?
Noah:
Before founding Pump, I had already gained experience in the cryptocurrency space. I believe Pump shouldn't be limited to a single sector. Our team consists of three co-founders, each with their own expertise and perspectives. This diversity allows us to build a comprehensive platform that integrates a variety of elements.
I'm interested in both financial systems and social dynamics, particularly how these factors influence human behavior. More importantly, I'm passionate about creating products that are widely adopted and can change users' thinking and behavior. This cross-disciplinary exploration is very meaningful to me.
Laura:
You're trying to mainstream your platform, but there can be a tension between innovation and reputation in the process. For example, what lessons have you learned from past livestream incidents involving threats of violence, and how are you addressing these challenges?
Noah:
The biggest lesson we learned from these incidents was that in the early days of the product launch, we were too focused on quickly releasing features without fully considering quality and potential risks. This made us realize that when developing new features, we must be prepared in advance and consider the worst-case scenario. Someone on the team needs to remind us that if things go wrong, there could be serious consequences.
When something undesirable happens, we immediately shut down the live streaming feature and establish a dedicated review team for real-time monitoring. We now have a strong team responsible for monitoring activity on the platform and ensuring everything operates smoothly. Furthermore, launching new products like DMs carries risks, such as the possibility of people sending inappropriate messages or illegal content, so we are also strengthening our review in this area.
In conclusion, this may sound a bit cliché, but it is very important to learn from past mistakes and iterate quickly, otherwise you will not be able to make the platform interesting.
How Pump.fun adapts to a world of growing wealth disparity
Laura:
I'd like to ask some more philosophical questions, because I've found your work incredibly fascinating. If we look back at the history of the internet, it went through three phases: "read, write, own." So, what is your role in Web 3? What do you think Pump represents culturally? You're clearly promoting new behaviors and forms of activity, but what exactly are they? How do you see your place in the historical evolution of the internet?
Noah:
I believe this reflects the current needs of young people. In today's society, I've witnessed firsthand the widening wealth gap: the rich are getting richer, while ordinary people struggle to break free from their existing economic constraints. Many feel trapped in a stagnant system, with few opportunities for change. Meanwhile, social media platforms like TikTok and Instagram Reels consume a significant portion of people's time, with many spending ten hours a day browsing content. Some even buy iPhones primarily to consume this content more conveniently, while using Instagram primarily to view ads. This state of affairs leaves many feeling lost.
Against this backdrop, Pump aims to offer a new option, allowing people to break free from existing constraints and regain control of their lives. While this may sound a bit bold, it's precisely the idea behind the meme. If you talk to young people, especially those with some familiarity with finance or cryptocurrency, they'll tell you they want to create their own financial system, freeing themselves from the current feeling of being "controlled" (much like the "Matrix" in the movie "The Matrix").
Many people believe that the advent of the internet has made information more accessible, thus improving people's quality of life. I think this is true to some extent, but it has also created new problems. In the past, people could at least relieve stress by going out and doing activities, but now they are completely captivated by platforms like Instagram and TikTok, making it almost impossible to escape. With Pump, we hope to create an environment where people can not only consume content but also earn tangible benefits from it. If you spend a lot of time consuming content, we hope that you will create a whole new market through investment and participation.
I believe that each generation creates its own financial system. History has proven this, with the baby boomers building the modern banking system, the Silicon Valley generation developing new financial instruments, and now, the rise of cryptocurrency is a product of this innovation. I believe this indicates the long-term success of cryptocurrency.
Laura:
Did you gain new insights into human behavior by observing how people used the Pump? Did you discover new behavioral patterns or observe cultural and societal evolution?
Noah:
I believe that culture and society often repeat themselves in different forms. Human nature hasn't changed much over the past three thousand years, so it's difficult to create completely new behavioral patterns. However, by combining and innovating existing behaviors, new forms of expression can be formed. I remember when I first started, I saw users combining live streams with chart analysis. It was a completely new form of content that I found very special. This kind of innovation is exactly what we hope to inspire with Pump.
Project roadmaps are a fallacy
Laura:
Going back to the ambitious goals you outlined earlier , have you developed a roadmap, even a rough one, for how you'll compete with platforms like TikTok?
Noah:
Frankly, I'm not a believer in the concept of a "roadmap," and I hope everyone rethinks it. There's no ten-step plan that will guarantee you becoming the world's largest company. The idea is unrealistic. If we look at successful companies like WhatsApp, they've achieved scale by keeping the product relatively unchanged since its launch, relying solely on small but crucial tweaks.
The secret to these companies' success often lies in their focus on optimizing small details. For example, WhatsApp initially offered a paid subscription, then became free. It also gradually expanded support for multiple languages and increased the maximum number of participants in group chats, for example, to 1,000. These seemingly minor changes actually fueled the platform's next phase of growth.
Our team's goal is similar. Rather than a fixed roadmap, we prioritize rapid iteration and continuous optimization, maintaining close communication with users to understand their real needs. By incorporating this feedback into our vision for the future, we hope to create a comprehensive platform tailored to the needs of young people—a one-stop shop for chatting, consuming content, and managing personal finances. I believe this kind of platform is the future direction and the goal we strive for.
Will Pump.fun develop into a "full-service app"?
Laura:
If I were to summarize where Pump.fun is headed in the next few years, it seems to be about building a community around creators and the content they publish, with both creators and the community earning financially through the platform, and with live streaming capabilities integrated into creators’ content.
Can you imagine this app eventually evolving into a “super app”-like platform where users can manage their savings and consume content, like an integrated app that combines TikTok, Robinhood, and banking features?
Noah:
This is indeed our vision. We want to build an "all-in-one app," but unlike existing super apps, we're targeting the needs of a younger generation. Traditional all-in-one apps, like Facebook, have gradually lost their appeal. These platforms were designed more for the user base of the past, not for today's youth. Our goal is to attract a new generation of users, like TikTok's young audience. We want to think about what kind of product the next generation of 18-year-old users really need.
Laura:
Given the controversy and negative labels associated with the meme, do you have a strategy to help Pump.fun gain mainstream acceptance?
Noah:
We've deliberately avoided defining Pump.fun as a meme platform. While some users do use it that way, we've designed it to be a tool that can serve a variety of needs. If users simply uploaded videos like YouTube, Pump.fun would become a video sharing platform. This is what makes Pump unique—it's an infrastructure that allows users to flexibly adapt it to their needs.
So I wouldn't call Pump a meme platform. It could be a short video trading platform, a live streaming trading platform, or even a messaging app. Its functionality depends entirely on how users use it . I believe the future trend of large-scale apps will be to provide users with diverse options, allowing them to use it in their own way. Take Twitter, for example: some people use it for news, others for making friends; everyone uses it for different purposes.
Laura:
Your mention of live streaming capabilities reminded me of prediction markets like event contracts. Have you considered how to combine the two?
Noah:
Prediction markets are a hot topic, but in reality, they don't generate real value. While they exist, their revenue and user base are very limited. For example, while our daily trading volume sometimes reaches billions of dollars, prediction markets only see a monthly trading volume of 100 million, which speaks volumes to the limited user interest.
I believe prediction markets are more of a venture capital concept than a sustainable business model . Unless there are significant breakthroughs, these markets will struggle to be profitable. Our focus has always been on building products that users truly need, rather than chasing market trends.
Laura:
Last question, can you share some news about the airdrop?
Noah:
All news about airdrops will be released through official channels, such as Twitter.
Many successful products didn't start out in their final form. For example, YouTube or Facebook weren't widely accepted in their early stages. Products evolve over time. Therefore, it's crucial to focus on long-term development and continuous improvement .
