Editor's Note: This conversation is about the US economy, investment, cryptocurrency and future technology. The focus of the discussion includes the flexibility of American capitalism, entrepreneurship, the potential of cryptocurrency and the future of investment. In particular, the guests talked about their views on cryptocurrency and their reservations about its future despite missing investment opportunities. Wealth growth, technological innovation, economic differences between Europe and the United States, and future market trends were also discussed.

The following is the original content (for easier reading and understanding, the original content has been reorganized):

Host: Today's guest is Ken Griffin, founder and CEO of Citadel. I think he's probably one of the most influential individuals in the financial markets right now. His hedge fund manages about $65 billion in assets, but I think more importantly, Citadel Securities' business handles almost a quarter of the U.S. stock market's trading volume every day.

He is also a major philanthropist and a big influence in American politics. In the past election cycle, he was one of the top five donors to the Republican Party, second only to Elon Musk.

I want to start with politics and policy because you were mentioned as one of the biggest donors to the Republican Party. But interestingly, I noticed that you did not donate to President-elect Trump. I want to read you a passage from October where you said, "I didn't support Donald Trump. I'm torn about it. I know who I'm voting for, but I'm not happy." Now that the election is over, are you happy now?

Ken Griffin: Yes, because the Republicans won the House, the Senate, and the White House. We now have the opportunity to govern and make America work for everyday Americans and return America to a principled, strong, and prosperous country. I'm excited about the possibility.

About the Second Trump Administration

Host: Can you talk about your dissatisfaction with the president-elect?

Ken Griffin: I think the president-elect has been through a tremendous amount of personal stress over the last few months, and imagine that he not only had to deal with endless attacks on the American legal system, but he also came within an inch of an assassination attempt. But he persevered and made it through the election. At that time, we were looking at a person who was under tremendous pressure, there is no doubt about that.

Understandably, that pressure hasn't always brought out the best in him, but now that he is the president-elect, I will do everything I can to support him in his future role as president of the United States.

Host: You said you were unhappy when you voted, so I guess you voted for him, right? So you are happy with the result?

Ken Griffin: Yes, I voted for him. I think between the two candidates, from a policy perspective, this was clearly the best outcome.

Moderator: So let's talk about some policy issues, and perhaps the biggest one is tariffs. There is no clear answer to this question, but its impact on the economy is huge.

Ken Griffin: America is now open for business again, and the paralysis caused by regulation and litigation during the Biden administration has ended. So when I talk to a group of American business executives, whether they are from the telecommunications industry or the consumer sector, whether they voted for Trump or Harris, from a business development perspective, they are all smiling. Because now they can focus on creating value for customers, creating jobs, growing their businesses and prospering, rather than being plagued by endless meaningless lawsuits and regulations.

Lina Khan, for example, seems to have completely missed advanced economics courses in college. Her role in undermining American productivity has been enormous. So I think for the United States, all these issues about tariffs, energy extraction, are secondary to the primary issue of getting America back to business.

Moderator: Why do you say these are secondary? The regulatory policies of the Biden administration do bring a lot of uncertainty.

Ken Griffin: It's not uncertainty, it's outright loss.

Host: Now there are new uncertainties, such as the tariff issue. What do you think about this issue?

Ken Griffin: I think it will probably take months or even years for us to figure out where this is going. To be clear, this uncertainty does undermine capital formation, there is no doubt about that. At the same time, we have to remember that the president's background is in the real estate industry, and the negotiating rules in real estate are often different from what we see in stock or bond trading.

In real estate, you might buy a building every few months or years and you'll likely never deal with the same seller again. The negotiation dynamics in that model are completely different than day-to-day, frequent transactions. I think the president brought that behavior model to the White House because it's part of his economic background.

He'll make some bold stance and then watch how the other side responds. For example, you'll see his tariff threats against Canada and Mexico.

Moderator: I think the bigger issue might be about the BRICS countries, for example, the president-elect said that if these BRICS countries try to establish their own currency system, the United States will impose tariffs on all of them. I guess this new uncertainty may be something you didn't expect before?

Ken Griffin: The key is: Where is this going? The president is not going to do that. It is not going to happen. The BRICS are not going to decouple from the dollar in the next four years. He is not going to retaliate against them on trade or anything else.

Moderator: Language does matter, and when we read his tweets, statements, or other social media content, some of the words may seem meaningless. Do you think his declarations, even if you think they will not be realized, will have any impact on the country?

Ken Griffin: Of course it will have an impact. As a media person, you should know that language is powerful.

Host: Agreed, so I'm curious, are these languages ​​important to you?

Ken Griffin: Of course it matters, and that's why I couldn't smile when I voted. I wish his language was more precise, and I wish his ideas were more transparent, clear, and easy to understand. But the core ideas he expressed - that America can be a great country, a country where people can live a better life, a country where people can make their own decisions - these values ​​resonate throughout the country.

Host: We need to distinguish the big picture. The meaning of this government is that it represents a free America, a prosperous America, a strong America, and a respected America. We should focus on these big picture issues, which are the core of America. But the question of "respect" is really interesting, right? If you are constantly in conflict with all the countries around you, this will become a core issue.

Ken Griffin: There is no doubt that the world is looking to the United States for leadership. Although we may threaten Mexico or Canada with tariffs, these are minor issues compared to the world's expectations of the United States. For example, when we tell Hamas to release the hostages before the president takes office, this statement has a significant impact on the world.

Moderator: Let me ask you a question. Trump just appointed Scott Besson as Treasury Secretary. I know you previously supported Mark Rowen, who was working at Apollo at the time. What do you think of Scott Besson as Treasury Secretary?

Ken Griffin: I don’t know Scott personally, but I have a friend who is one of the most successful fund managers of all time and he raves about Scott. Frankly, Mark Rowen is very good at running large organizations. From my perspective, the president needs to have someone who can run large organizations, which is a very important skill. So it’s easy for me to get excited about Mark, but that doesn’t mean Scott can’t do the job.

Moderator: I asked about Scott Besson because he and President-elect Trump have mentioned issues that could undermine the independence of the Federal Reserve. We will meet Trump and the current Federal Reserve Chairman Powell later. And Scott Besson has publicly talked about the idea of ​​creating a so-called "shadow Fed chair." This person would be nominated to the Fed, but even if he is not in the Fed, he can influence the market, making investors skeptical of the policies of the current Fed chairman and more inclined to predict what measures the next chairman will take. What do you think of this idea?

On the U.S. economy over the next four years

Ken Griffin: We need to get back to the basics, the independence of the Fed is critical to the stability of the dollar. I have been publicly supporting Powell, not just in recent months, but for many years, because I truly believe that the independence of the Fed is very important to maintaining and enhancing the health of the U.S. economy, whether it is President Trump or any previous president.

Of course, every president has objected to the Fed making tough decisions. Politically, you can't say "Great, I'm really excited about this" when the Fed raises rates to control inflation and causes job losses. No one expects the president to play that role. The job of the Fed chair is to make the tough decisions that politicians are afraid to face.

Host: How would you rate Jay Powell's job performance so far?

Ken Griffin: I want to be clear, Jay Powell has one of the worst jobs facing him because the Biden administration has put this country on an unprecedented inflationary trajectory with its irresponsible fiscal spending, and then he has to deal with the job of cleaning up massive fiscal deficits, just as this administration has to clean up those deficits. So, he's had a very difficult job over the past few years with almost no chance of winning.

So some people think he may have landed successfully, or at least had a soft landing, or we're still hovering. You can look at the stock market right now. It feels good in the short term, but as Scott said, I give him credit, we have to get our fiscal issues in order. As we get our federal finances in order, that's going to have other impacts on our economy that the legislature and the Fed have to deal with.

Host: So right now, the stock market is looking good and the bond market may be behaving differently. What do you think is going on?

Ken Griffin: I don't think the bond market has been very volatile over the last few weeks, even though it has reacted a bit.

Host: If you are an investor in the stock market, do you think what is happening now makes sense?

Ken Griffin: Let's go back to our opening comments about corporate America, certainly, it's in better shape now than it was before the election.

Moderator: Wouldn't that undercut all the other uncertainties? Or do you think those uncertainties won't happen at all, and that's what we should decide?

Ken Griffin: No, it's the difference between understanding the big picture and getting caught up in the details. It's like not seeing the forest for the trees.

Moderator: But given that the White House, as you said, the Congress and the Senate have gone red, is there any control factor, maybe the bond market, that will ultimately have a discussion about spending and other things that are going to happen, or not happen? Do you think the bond market will be affected if we don't have control over this?

Ken Griffin: If we don't get our finances in order, the bond market should be affected, I mean that's exactly what the bond market should do.

Host: Do you believe in Elon Musk and Doge? Because it has to do with whether the bond market thinks we have the situation under control.

Ken Griffin: It's absurd to put the entire blame on Elon Musk, and we have some extremely capable, competent, and smart people helping advise the president. We're back to the good old days when people like this weren't in the White House, and I'd love to have Elon in the White House now. What we're hoping for is that the president, Congress, the Senate, and the judiciary can all play a role in fighting crony capitalism.

One of my biggest concerns, both with the current administration and the previous administration, is the increase in crony capitalism in America. When we have favoritism in Washington with taxpayer dollars, picking winners and losers, it's really not fair to American taxpayers, American consumers, and future generations. And it's not just a Washington problem. Look at California, trying to give electric vehicle subsidies to everyone except Tesla. I mean, it's just beyond comprehension, how can it be so shocking?

Host: You are an investor in Tesla.

Ken Griffin: That was a few weeks ago, and we were trading a quarter of all stocks in the U.S. market every day.

Host: That's true, and I'm actually very interested if you're an investor in Tesla, or at least interested in it. There was an important decision made this week. I don't know if you're paying attention, but this issue has been hanging over the past year regarding Elon Musk's compensation package. Do you have any thoughts on this? In this case, shareholders voted to approve the compensation package, and the court in Delaware, where Tesla is registered, said it was unacceptable. Do you have any thoughts?

Ken Griffin: I can only say one thing, if you had $5 billion at risk and it was OK, that would be great, but can you imagine the risk?

Host: Actually that begs the question, you happen to be one of the richest people in the country, maybe you don't have an extra $5 billion sitting around, but you're at the top. I want to read you something, and I'm curious how it affects you.

Warren Buffett just wrote a letter, I don't know if you've read it. He talked about giving more of his money away and having his children do it. He wrote the following, which was very interesting to me. He said that when he was very young, he was confident that he would become rich, but neither I nor anyone else could have imagined the huge amount of wealth that would be achieved in the United States over the past few decades.

He couldn't believe it was happening, even to himself, and he said it was beyond the imagination of Ford, Carnegie, Morgan, or Rockefeller. Today, billions have become the new millions. What do you think of this idea? Because I think it's really a pretty significant shift in our culture and society.

Ken Griffin: It’s an amazing part of American history that about 125 years ago, almost half of the U.S. population worked in agriculture. The transformation of our economy in 12 decades is astounding. Now we’re at an interesting economic juncture where a bright idea can be brought to market quickly and reach billions of consumers overnight.

In fact, think about the instant reach that we get today from this conference. Conferences like this now give you access to the entire world in a way that I don't think was possible 50 years ago. So what that means is that in this day and age, great entrepreneurs have the ability to take an idea, bring it to market, and launch it globally in a way that you couldn't have done before. Right? If you think back 70 years ago, you opened a single retail store. If everything went well, you might open another store a few miles down the street or in the next town, right? But today with Jeff Bezos' Amazon, yes, Amazon gives everyone instant reach, but you couldn't imagine what it was like 50 years ago.

Host: I don't disagree with that, it's a fantastic thing, but the thing is, if billions are the new millions, then I'm guessing we're going to see trillions pretty soon.

Ken Griffin: I think Warren is very smart in his choice of words. After all, there are far fewer millionaires than billionaires.

Host: Sean Fain He says billionaires shouldn't exist. You're a capitalist. What do you think? I just want to know your opinion on this despair.

Ken Griffin: That's his problem with a lot of things - he doesn't understand the consequences of his actions. We can all be poor, but I'd rather not be poor, and everybody would rather not be poor, and in our country, we'd rather not be Venezuela.

Host: I have a couple quick questions for you, actually a question about your specific business right now .

Ken Griffin: The flexibility of the American capital system and the American labor market is a big part of our national living standards story. Nowhere else do people, on average, have such high living standards and so many opportunities for their children. You look at Europe, and it's just sluggish compared to America. It's a continent that's disappearing on every level. Their birthrates are a challenge, their economic growth is slow, their per capita numbers are distressing, and their optimism about the future is nonexistent. Do you want to be European? I don't. I want to be American.

Moderator: Let me ask about the investment business because it has changed a lot over the years and I think there are two models operating now. One is the model you are in, and I put you and Millennium Capital, and probably Point72, and even Jane Street in this category. One is individuals who have their own firms, and there is a question of whether we can effectively compete with larger firms. What do you think of this concept?

Ken Griffin: If Serena Williams came today and played tennis with me, I would say, can't you use tennis to make a point?

Moderator: I mean, there are two types of these huge funds that are getting all kinds of information. I don't mean illegally getting information, but these large teams can pass on the cost of getting a lot of information to their investors. This is completely different from the business model 10 or 20 years ago. If you start today, do you think you can start a small fund and compete with your current business?

Ken Griffin: It's the power of youthful naivety, right? When I started out I was competing against companies like Salomon Brothers and Goldman Sachs, and they seemed so huge.

Host: So if you were to start a fund or do something today, what would you do?

Ken Griffin: That's what entrepreneurs have, okay, they have this belief that even though you have almost no chance under any set of metrics, I'm going to do it. Do you think Elon Musk thinks he can beat the big auto companies just based on first principles? No, I think it's hard work and getting better people together and then finding a way, like entrepreneurs find a way to achieve their goals.

How has the investment business changed over the past 30 years? Of course there have been huge changes, and the rise of passive investing has been huge. Almost 50% of all assets are now in passive investment vehicles, which are almost free of cost to investors. But the premise of these vehicles is that the market is efficient because active managers like Citadel, Millennium, Point 72 exist.

And to be clear, there are hundreds of other very good, very capable hedge funds, like D1 and so on. These are very well done firms, doing very good research. Because that's what's interesting about my job. My job is essentially research. Like you said, gathering information, drawing conclusions, understanding the business model, understanding the product, and understanding what parts are not reflected in the stock price.

Host: With all the good things that you're saying are happening in this country, given all of this, what would you be investing in at scale right now? Are there any particular sectors or companies that you would be investing in?

Ken Griffin: The global trend is that more resources are flowing to the United States. This is a global trend because it is the most dynamic country.

Host: Do you have your eyes on a certain industry, company, or place that you can tell everyone is the direction we want to go?

Ken Griffin: That's the challenge between investing and the economy. The direction of the economy is clear. Healthcare will continue to become more and more important, and technology will continue to attract resources and continue to revolutionize our lives. But the question is whether the valuations of these companies as investment targets have fully reflected a bright future or over-reflected a bright future.

On the future development of cryptocurrency

Host: What do you think about another area that is developing rapidly right now? That is Bitcoin and cryptocurrency?

Ken Griffin: Let's end with this. What do you think?

Host: So cryptocurrency is not interesting to you at all?

Ken Griffin: For example, I own some oil canvases, the canvases may cost $15, the oil paints cost about $20, and the total cost is about $35, but these paintings are worth tens of millions of dollars. Who am I to evaluate cryptocurrencies?

Moderator: But you’ve been asked to judge cryptocurrency for a long time, and you’ve made your judgment by not buying it, right?

Ken Griffin: That was a mistake.

Host: Do you regret it now? I'm a journalist, and I'm telling the truth, I held mutual funds, but I wasn't allowed to invest, so I missed out too.

Ken Griffin: That's a shame, but of course, I wish I had bought something that was trading at 100 times what it's trading at a few years ago, right? We all have that psychology, it's universal human psychology. There's always, what are we missing out on? And then the second question is, what do I not care about cryptocurrencies is what problem does it solve for our economy?

Moderator: What do you think will happen in the end? Because you've mentioned a lot of times what problems cryptocurrencies solve and why we should solve these problems. Do you think this whole crypto thing is just a crazy speculative bubble that will end badly like Warren Buffett said, or do you think it will continue to exist in this digital form and make sense?

Ken Griffin: I think it comes back to the same question of why people voted for Trump, because they wanted to get rid of the government.

Host: So maybe it could have a future, right?

Ken Griffin: It may have a future, and you have to remember that with an asset like this, an intangible asset, its value comes from the intangible aspects, partly from the community, partly from having this feeling of, "I'm on the side of the state," right? People get pleasure from that. I think one of the things we've seen in this election cycle is that the American people are saying, I want to have control over my own lives, and cryptocurrency is part of that.

Host: What do you think of the founders of companies like Polymarket, and what do you think of people betting on elections right now? Is that a market? Is that something you want to get into?

Ken Griffin: I don't know, it's not what we do. But congratulations to Polymarket for building such an international brand in a few weeks with their huge bets on the Trump side, which I didn't spend a lot of time thinking about.

Host: Shane, he doesn’t want to get into your business. But I do wonder if you eventually want to get into that business now that you have a market where you can bet on all kinds of things?

Shane: You know I'm a product builder, I can't say I'm a trader, but I do think it's inevitable that there will be markets for everything, and it's exciting to see that. And I think that the biggest financial people might be a little dismissive of these markets and think they're too small, but it's still an opportunity for us. I think that with the naivety of youth and the entrepreneurial spirit, as Ken said, maybe those opportunities that seem small can become very big tomorrow.

Moderator: Maybe we all end up betting on these markets, and I have one last question before you go. A few years ago, I don't know if you remember, you bid for a seat on a Blue Origin spacecraft at the Robin Hood event, and you paid $8 million for that seat. Do you remember that? I do. And you gave the seat to a teacher. My question is, do you have any ambitions to go to space yourself?

Ken Griffin: If you live to be 98, I'll tell you.

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