Compiled by TechFlow
Original title: Dialogue with CZ: I am not particularly concerned about money, the Chinese theme meme is purely coincidental
Guest: CZ, Founder of Binance
Moderator: Michael Jerome
Podcast source: threadguy
Binance Founder CZ on Memecoins, Aster, BNB vs. SOL and More | TG Podcast
Air Date: October 11, 2025
Summary of key points
In this in-depth interview, Binance founder CZ ( CZ ) shares his post-CEO journey, reflections on his imprisonment, a new understanding of wealth and life's purpose, and unique insights into the cryptocurrency industry, memecoins, and the future of decentralized finance (DeFi). Moderated by ThreadGuy, CZ also delved into Bitcoin's next market cycle, the rapid rise of BNB Chain, the competitive landscape of perpetual contract decentralized exchanges (DEXs) like Aster and Hyperliquid, and how young developers can navigate the crypto landscape today. This conversation is a must-see for anyone interested in cryptocurrency, blockchain technology, or entrepreneurship.
Summary of highlights
I've never been someone who particularly cared about money.
I hope to continue contributing to the crypto industry, but I don't feel a responsibility to the industry as a whole.
I think BNB can surpass Solana and maintain its dominance in both on-chain and meme activity.
I am not against meme coins, I am just not personally keen on them, but that doesn't mean I don't support their development.
The appearance of the Chinese-themed meme on the BNB chain is purely coincidental and happened completely by accident.
In the long term, within the next 20, 30 or 50 years, cryptocurrency transactions will be completely transferred to the chain.
The path of "Launchpad, Aster, Alpha, and spot" is the result of natural evolution.
I don't know Jeff from Hyperliquid. I set my alarm wrong and overslept, missing a meeting with Jeff, but I don't regret missing it.
Once you have a clear vision of the future, investing in Bitcoin becomes more than just about short-term profit.
I recommend young people to get involved in entrepreneurship as early as possible and not be too eager for quick success. I founded Binance when I was 40, and now I'm 48. You don't have to be successful early.
The charm of the encryption industry lies in its diversity. Every field has huge potential, which is also the advantage of encryption technology.
Health is the most important thing. Without health, everything else is meaningless.
Users will ultimately choose exchanges that can provide the best trading experience, which usually includes the most liquid platform, the lowest transaction fees, and the most stable and secure environment. These are the core factors that users really care about.
I once predicted that the price of Bitcoin could be between $500,000 and $1 million, which still seems reasonable.
Hyperliquid Jeff tweets about time and missed meetings
host:
A lot has been going on lately, and we'll talk about it all. I woke up this morning and Twitter was abuzz with tweets about Jeff. What's going on? Everyone's talking about it. You retweeted a tweet from, I think, 2018, about a group Jeff was involved in. It was trending a lot on Twitter today. Can you tell me the story behind that?
CZ:
To be honest, I don't know Jeff and don't recall ever meeting him. In fact, I wasn't directly involved in any of the teams or projects incubated by Binance Season 1 Labs, so my knowledge of Jeff was limited. Earlier this year, Ella told me he was a member of the Season 1 team and asked if I'd like to chat with him. I agreed, thinking it would be a good opportunity to learn more. However, I felt he wasn't fully prepared for the meeting. We didn't discuss any transactions or propose any collaboration. In fact, their project was already very mature, while we prefer to invest in early-stage projects. Through our incubation and residency programs, we hope to help these projects grow from scratch. So, the meeting was more of a casual exchange.
Unfortunately, I overslept that day and missed the meeting because I set my alarm incorrectly. Since the meeting didn't have a clear agenda, we didn't reschedule it.
host:
So will you regret missing this meeting?
CZ:
No, I don't regret it. That meeting happened only a few months ago, and by then they'd already achieved significant success and a high valuation. It was no longer a suitable investment target for us. We've traditionally avoided large acquisitions; our largest acquisition to date was CoinMarketCap, which was in the hundreds of millions of dollars. Therefore, their scale was beyond our investment range. Because there was no clear objective for the meeting, we didn't reschedule it. They were busy, I was busy, and it just fell through. It wasn't a meeting with transactional intent; it was simply a casual exchange.
Life after Binance and finding my purpose
host:
What are your goals from now on? You're undoubtedly one of the wealthiest people in the world and a leading figure in the cryptocurrency industry. And now, having just come out of prison, you're active again on Twitter. I'm curious, what are your goals now? What drives you to keep going?
CZ:
Honestly, I've never been one to particularly care about money. Success like Binance came so quickly that I never got to experience the gradual accumulation and enjoyment of wealth. From the beginning, we were incredibly busy, dealing with emergencies almost daily, and later, dealing with the US government, which also brought a lot of pressure.
I come from a relatively modest family background and don't have a lavish lifestyle. My life requirements are simple: just things that work. Binance grew incredibly quickly, from zero to the world's largest cryptocurrency exchange in just five months. Seven months later, we were on the cover of Forbes. Going straight from zero to the cover of Forbes felt surreal. I thought, "Is this real?" But in reality, I didn't feel any significant change in my life. I didn't cash out my wealth, and my bank account didn't add much. Sure, I was a little richer than before, but nowhere near the billions people talk about. So, I didn't experience a gradual accumulation of wealth.
I've never felt poor in what I pursue. I don't believe I need wealth to prove myself, so I'm content with being a successful entrepreneur. I don't need to be a serial entrepreneur; I feel I've already done well. While I've made some mistakes along the way, they haven't been serious. I haven't deceived anyone, and no users have been harmed. On the contrary, I've always worked hard to protect our users, BNB investors, and all team members who own shares in the company. I believe our team has performed exceptionally well. I've also done my best to protect the platform we've built together. I take responsibility for my own mistakes and face them bravely.
My time in prison gave me more time to reflect on what truly matters. Honestly, prison has cleared my mind. I've realized that health is the most important thing. Without it, everything else is meaningless. Fortunately, prison has nothing else to do, so it's a forced "rest." There, I began to think: If I lost everything, what would I miss most? The answer is family and relationships. As for other things, like delicious food or a comfortable bed, although I would miss them, they are manageable and secondary.
Before I was imprisoned, I realized I could no longer manage Binance, but I remained a shareholder. At that time, I began to wonder: What excites and brings me joy? After much reflection, I concluded that perhaps humans are designed to help their fellow creatures. When you can take care of yourself, helping others makes you feel even better. If I'm hungry, I'll first feed myself; if I'm cold, I need to find shelter. But once these basic needs are met, helping others brings me satisfaction and joy.
So I began to think, how could I better help others? At the time, I had already pleaded guilty to federal charges, so I wasn't concerned about the damage to my reputation. Despite this, I still cared deeply about my credibility. I hadn't harmed any users, nor had I ever harmed anyone. I no longer sought power, having resigned from Binance. I had no interest in money, either, as I spent very little, not even a fraction of the wealth people claimed I possessed. So, these things were unimportant to me.
I hope that when I'm old, I can honestly say I did my best to help others. That's what I care about most now. I hope to have a positive impact on the world. If my abilities are high enough, I'll do more; if my abilities are limited, I'll do my best. I believe education has great potential because it can impact so many people. If we can build a digital education platform that everyone can benefit from, that would be incredibly meaningful.
So, we've been working on this. After my release, it took me several months to adjust, and the experience had a profound impact on me. A few months later, I became active on Twitter again, interacting with people normally. I also spent time with my family. Later, I realized I could still manage the investment portion of my portfolio, independent of Binance. I started working with Binance Labs and clarifying the brand's differentiation. I'm now laser-focused on the development of the BNB Chain ecosystem, which, again, has nothing to do with centralized exchanges. I'll invest in this space and help others.
My greatest joy right now is helping other founders succeed. I'm happy to be a mentor, a supporter, or anything in between. That's where my life and purpose lie right now.
Lessons from the prison experience and shifting priorities
host:
Given your position in the cryptocurrency industry and your past experience, do you feel a responsibility to influence the future direction of the industry?
CZ:
I don't feel that way. First, I don't consider myself that important. I don't believe any single individual can be solely responsible for the entire crypto industry. It's a self-regulating ecosystem that experiences downturns (so-called "winters") and cyclical fluctuations, but each recovery is more mature than the last. Therefore, I believe the future of the crypto industry is bright.
While I don't consider myself an industry leader, I do hope to contribute. I focus on areas I'm familiar with and use my influence to advance the industry. Crypto is the area I understand best and where I can truly make a difference. Therefore, I'm currently spending a lot of time interacting with people in the industry. My social circle is also primarily focused on this area, and everyone is willing to discuss crypto-related topics with me.
Of course, I've also had some people from other fields reach out to me, like those working in AI. I've also had conversations with people from Facebook, but their communication style is completely different from that of people in the crypto industry. In the biotech space, when we decide to invest, we often need to proactively reach out to relevant people, as I'm not familiar with the field.
I hope to continue contributing to the crypto industry, but I don't feel a responsibility to the entire industry. That would be too much of a burden. I believe there are many talented participants in the crypto industry who are driving progress. I feel more comfortable being just one of many contributors, and that role makes me feel more relaxed and comfortable.
The Current State of the Cryptocurrency Industry and On-Chain Culture
host:
The current state of cryptocurrency Twitter, especially on-chain culture, can seem a bit strange. For example, Bitcoin just hit a new all-time high, only to drop several percentage points today. Yet, a glance at Twitter's timeline reveals a deluge of negativity. However, from a broader perspective, the crypto industry is experiencing many positive changes. For example, the Trump administration is embracing cryptocurrencies, ETFs for Bitcoin, Solana, and Ethereum have launched, and major global financial institutions are adopting stablecoins. From the outside, it seems like cryptocurrency has achieved tremendous success, permeating every aspect of the world.
However, on-chain culture seems to be stagnating. The meme coin craze, while still alive, is not as large as it once was. Many are confused about the next direction of on-chain development. How optimistic are you about the future of on-chain culture?
CZ:
I agree with you that the issues you mention do exist, but overall, this is a positive development because it signifies the continued expansion of the industry. In 2013 and 2014, people simply referred to the space as "the Bitcoin industry," with the focus solely on Bitcoin, without considering the broader scope of cryptocurrencies or blockchain technology. Then, in 2017, the emergence of Ethereum opened a whole new chapter, spawning several promising Altcoin.
Ethereum's ERC token standard fueled the rise of ICOs and a rapid increase in the number of projects. This growth laid the foundation for the industry's explosive growth in 2021, ushering in innovative areas such as DeFi and NFTs. While their popularity has declined, DeFi and NFTs remain crucial components of the industry. The launch of more ETFs, stablecoins, and other financial products is undoubtedly a positive sign for the industry's development.
As the industry scales up, internal differentiation becomes more pronounced. This differentiation is reflected not only in different technical fields but also in the groups and geographical distribution of participants. In fact, this differentiation is a natural result of industry growth.
Broader institutional participation has also driven change in the industry. Governments, Wall Street, and central banks are gradually entering the market, bringing in a wider range of participants. The involvement of traditional financial institutions has created a new balance with the liberals within the industry, with myself falling somewhere in the middle.
At the same time, new participants continue to enter the field, bringing with them a wider range of perspectives and voices. The cryptocurrency industry is a decentralized ecosystem that welcomes everyone. Diversity, debate, competition, and collaboration are the hallmarks of this industry and the driving force behind its development.
I'm used to the chaos of this emerging field. I've always been open-minded about the industry, so I see this diversity and dynamic change as positive. We should do our best to support everyone and contribute to the continued development of the industry.
host:
About five months ago, you mentioned on the Ferox podcast that you predicted Bitcoin could be priced between $500,000 and $1 million. Do you still have confidence in that prediction?
CZ:
I still think this prediction is reasonable. Of course, I must admit that price predictions themselves are unreliable. Honestly, no one can accurately predict price trends, including me. I've spoken with many industry insiders, and they don't have a definitive answer. Price predictions are more of a personal opinion.
However, if we look back at the four-year cycle in history, we generally find that every four years, the price of Bitcoin reaches a peak between October and December. Based on this pattern and the market performance we are currently seeing, I remain optimistic about the future of Bitcoin.
Bitcoin is currently near its all-time high, and while there are occasional fluctuations of 1% to 2%, for those who have been in the industry for 11 years, such fluctuations are minor. Bitcoin has experienced a 50% drop in one day and a 50% surge the next. From a long-term perspective, such fluctuations are perfectly normal in the crypto industry.
Comparison between BNB Chain and Solana
host:
I imagine many viewers may have first encountered cryptocurrency through the Solana meme coin craze and the rise of AI in 2024. Over the past month, they may have had their first encounters with the BNB chain. So, how do you envision the BNB chain's place in the cryptocurrency industry in 2025? How does its role in the industry compare to other chains and infrastructure?
CZ:
Yes, Bitcoin remains the largest blockchain in the current blockchain ecosystem, but its lack of programmability and smart contract functionality limits its functionality. The Bitcoin and Ethereum networks are already saturated due to their massive user base, contributing to the generally high transaction fees.
The BNB chain has been developing for some time and currently consists of three main technical chains: Greenfield, a storage chain; BNB Smart Chain, an EVM-enabled smart contract chain; and opBNB, a Layer 2 blockchain. Additionally, several new chains are under development, each employing a different technical architecture. Overall, the BNB chain prioritizes practicality and transaction liquidity, as these are particularly relevant to our context.
In terms of community and user base, the BNB chain has a relatively stable user base. In contrast, Solana is a very powerful blockchain, but currently it's more of a meme-centric chain. While Solana has the potential to grow further, its community currently has a large number of meme-centric traders, and meme-centric activity on Solana has decreased in recent times.
Meanwhile, activity on the BNB chain is increasing. Over the past week, we've seen many Solana users switch to the BNB chain, which is a positive sign. Community feedback suggests that BNB chain users are more inclined to hold their tokens for the long term, rather than chasing daily volatility.
Of course, there are significant differences between different chains. For example, some US blockchain projects, such as the Move blockchain, have smaller transaction volumes but employ interesting technologies. This demonstrates that the industry as a whole is still in its early stages and has significant room for growth.
host:
That said, Solana and its on-chain activity is indeed a significant story in the current cycle. Do you think BNB can surpass and maintain its dominance in on-chain and meme coin activity?
CZ:
I think it's possible. Over the past few weeks, BNB's meme coin activity has indeed surpassed Solana's. I understand that there are currently five BNB-based meme coins with market capitalizations between $100 million and $500 million, a situation we haven't seen with Solana, which may have impacted Solana's performance over the past few weeks.
However, I don't believe that competition between blockchains is a zero-sum game. Each chain has its own unique historical context. For example, Solana's development is closely tied to FTX, and FTX's collapse had a significant impact on the Solana team. Despite this, Solana has achieved a remarkable recovery.
However, during the recovery process, their ecosystems lost support from exchanges. Furthermore, the current regulatory environment presents challenges for the industry as a whole. Under the Biden administration and SEC Chairman Gary Gensler, many utility tokens, including BNB and others, are at risk of securities lawsuits.
If a project attempts to launch a product with real-world utility, it could face legal pressure from the SEC. Meme coins, however, are often able to circumvent these issues by explicitly stating they have "no value or utility." For this reason, some Solana projects may be more inclined to adopt a "pure hype" strategy. For example, there's a platform called Pump. I believe similar platforms would raise numerous issues if they emerged within our ecosystem, even though I have no direct connection to them.
This also explains why meme coins haven't seen widespread adoption on many blockchains. Nevertheless, as long as Solana maintains its fast, efficient, and well-supported performance, I believe it's a blockchain worth watching. However, my personal focus right now is on the BNB chain ecosystem. Our portfolio projects and wallets support both Solana and the BNB chain.
Our investment strategy is open, but I clearly invest more time and energy in the BNB Chain ecosystem. We are committed to supporting innovation and helping founders drive project development. Currently, the BNB Chain ecosystem is very active. While there are challenges every day, overall, I am confident in its development.
CZ's Changing View on Memecoins
host:
I noticed your comments about Solana, and I also see that the BNB chain's infrastructure seems to be undergoing similar changes, particularly regarding the launchpad standard. You publicly expressed a lukewarm attitude towards meme coins several times in 2024, such as mentioning on a podcast that you weren't a big fan of them. But recently, you seem to have become more positive about meme coins. What's the reason behind this change?
CZ:
First, I want to clarify that I'm not against meme coins. I've never explicitly stated my opposition, but I'm not personally enthusiastic about them. This doesn't mean I don't support their development. In fact, I'm not the creator of a meme coin, nor am I an NFT trader. I've never purchased an NFT, and even my investments in Altcoin are very limited. My primary holdings are Bitcoin and BNB, which I hold for the long term. I don't frequently invest in other blockchain projects, but I always support the development of all blockchain ecosystems.
I work closely with many blockchain developers and support their projects. While I don't personally own MemeCoin, this doesn't prevent me from supporting the growth of these ecosystems. If users find success on other blockchains, I'll also provide financial support to projects in related fields. For example, I invest in teams focused on developing platforms and infrastructure.
Every day I receive a lot of project requests, such as people developing new Launchpad projects, stablecoins, or meme coin exchanges. If I think the team has potential, I will do my best to support their work.
I simply believe that if meme coins join the BNB chain, we should welcome them and optimize our infrastructure to meet their needs. Meme coins place new demands on blockchain technology, such as rapid updates and real-time information processing. These demands pose significant challenges to the technical capabilities of the underlying infrastructure. To date, I personally haven't actively invested in meme coins. I've bought a few, but only for learning, not profit. I'm not the type of investor who expects a tenfold return in a short period of time; that's just not my style.
host:
The BNB chain's infrastructure and technology, particularly for meme coins, have made significant progress. I've personally participated in many related transactions and have had a very positive experience. If this trend continues, how large do you think meme coin activity on the BNB chain will grow? After all, the performance of the past month has surprised many people.
CZ:
This is difficult to predict because the lifecycle of meme coins changes very quickly. Some meme coins may become popular quickly, such as Doge, which is an example of a long-lasting meme coin. But at the same time, millions of new meme coins are created every day.
I'm not at the forefront of what you'd call the market, so I'm not the best person to predict market size and growth. I'm more focused on building the infrastructure to support these activities. I'm not a frequent trader, but a long-term holder.
My background is as a technology builder, and I hope to be able to build efficient tools for others to help them achieve their goals. I see many energetic young people with strong technical capabilities, and I hope to support them and help them further develop blockchain technology.
The Rise of Chinese Memecoins
host:
Recently, a number of China-themed meme coins have emerged on the BNB chain, attracting widespread attention from Western communities. What are your thoughts on the rise of these coins?
CZ:
I believe this phenomenon was purely coincidental and happened completely by accident. In February of this year, I first attempted to trade meme coins on the blockchain using Trust Wallet. The wallet had a simple interface, and I was familiar with using private keys, so I thought it would be easy. However, the situation was unexpected—I encountered a MEV (Maximum Extractable Value) attack, and the transaction failed. This incident later became a running joke, as everyone mocked my lack of familiarity with these types of transactions. However, the experience taught me a lot, even though the amount I invested was small, perhaps only $50 or $100.
Over time, my experimentation gradually garnered community attention. In particular, when I tweeted about DOGE, people began to show a keen interest in my dog ownership and dog-related memes. Later, I noticed that whatever I tweeted or pictured was being turned into a meme by the community. For a while, I even became very cautious, hesitant to post anything casually. But then I realized this was too restrictive, so I decided to give it a go and tweet whatever I wanted. If the community wanted to turn my content into memes, then so be it. Gradually, this interaction became part of the BNB on-chain meme culture, with many of the participants being Chinese users.
Binance co-founder He Yi is known for her exceptional Chinese language skills, poetry, and artistic flair. She once responded to a tweet about prejudice in life, which later became a meme. Earlier this week, I posted a Mid-Autumn Festival tweet wishing everyone a happy holiday. I later deleted it and reposted another one saying, "Happy Mid-Autumn Festival everyone, send me your best memes." I originally just wanted to get the community involved and add some fun. However, since Mid-Autumn Festival is a traditional Chinese holiday, the community-generated memes often revolve around Chinese elements, like mooncakes and the moon.
The naming of these meme coins is also full of Chinese characteristics. For example, someone made a feminine version of my name as a joke, a creative move that only those who understand Chinese can understand. As community interaction grew, Chinese user participation rapidly increased, and the popularity of these coins soared. This all evolved naturally, not by design.
A Confused Analysis of the Meme Craze
host:
Lately, I've been using Google Translate to try to understand what's going on behind the meme coin craze on the BNB chain. One controversial project, Meme Rush, employs a unique mechanism: only after passing KYC can users purchase the project's tokens with a bond value of less than $1 million, making it immediately inaccessible to US users. While I'm not sure how much information you can reveal, I'd like to ask: what's the purpose of launching a project like Meme Rush?
CZ:
I'm not involved in the Meme Rush project; I only learned about it yesterday. The community was buzzing with discussion, with many people asking, "What the hell is this?" I didn't even know it was called Meme Rush. It wasn't until I saw the information about it that I realized there were some issues with the project. However, I haven't paid much attention to it because I'm not in charge of it and don't actively understand the details. I usually let the community develop projects on their own without directly intervening.
I learned about this project just as I was flying to Bahrain for a conference. I left early that day, met with the governor of the local central bank, and participated in a panel discussion on stage. Throughout the day in the meeting, I discovered that the community had begun accusing me of "selling fake coins," which was very confusing. By the time I finally understood what was going on, the market had already experienced some volatility, but it hadn't completely collapsed. This situation illustrates the risk of meme coins—they lack price support and are extremely volatile. The rapid rise and fall in the price of meme coins over the past few days has been shocking to me.
host:
Next, I'd like to ask a question about meme coins. I originally wanted to ask about the differences between the BNB chain and the Solana chain, but while reading the tweets, I found a very interesting point raised by Frank D. Gods. He argues that the BNB chain has a unique advantage because it has a complete vertical ecosystem: meme coins can first launch through Launchpad, then be listed on Aster, and after success, enter Binance Alpha and finally Binance Spot.
Is this ecosystem design intentional? Do you think it will lead to more activity on the BNB chain?
CZ:
First, this was absolutely not by design. For the past six and a half years, I've been focused on centralized exchanges, without any deliberate planning for the BNB Chain ecosystem. These developments have been a natural evolution. Then, I decided I no longer wanted to spend my time on centralized exchanges. So, where should I focus my time?
I've started to focus on decentralized things, and I think the Binance exchange is a huge advantage. That's not to say Binance only lists projects or tokens on the BNB chain. In contrast, ecosystems like Solana's can be more exclusive. For example, Phantom Wallet only supports Solana, not the BNB chain. Trust Wallet, on the other hand, supports multiple blockchains, including BNB and Solana. Therefore, the BNB chain ecosystem is actually more open.
When Solana users want to bridge to the BNB Chain, they can use Trust Wallet, not Phantom. Furthermore, platforms like Radium only support Solana. Therefore, in a sense, other ecosystems are more exclusive. However, the BNB Chain's close connection to Binance has led to more users holding BNB, further strengthening community cohesion. The BNB Chain does have advantages, but it is not a closed ecosystem.
Comparison of Hyperliquid and Aster
host:
While discussing meme coins, another important trend I've noticed is the rise of specialized exchanges. Regarding Aster, I'd like to start with a question: Why has the rise of perpetual swap (PERP) exchanges in the cryptocurrency space been so significant? What do you attribute to Hyperliquid's early success?
CZ:
First, the concept of perp exchanges isn't entirely new. In fact, many similar projects existed before Dydx. However, Hyperliquid excelled in transaction traceability and capital pool utilization, while also boasting highly successful marketing, attracting large orders from investors like James Wayne. These factors combined to contribute to their early success.
However, I believe that traders' need for privacy is always important. Based on my conversations with Wall Street traders, they generally do not want their orders publicly available in real time, or even after the trade is completed. This information could be used to reverse engineer their algorithms, leading to strategy attacks. Therefore, transparency in trading is not always beneficial. This is a key insight I've gained from 20 years of experience on Wall Street, in cryptocurrencies, and on centralized exchanges. In early June of this year, I tweeted about this issue and received over 30 related proposals that same day. Aster proposed a solution that could achieve hidden order functionality, so we decided to invest in this project.
host:
So, how big do you think the market potential is for perp exchanges? What conditions do they need to meet to succeed?
CZ:
I believe there are two key factors. New users to cryptocurrency often choose CEXs because they offer email logins, password protection, and customer support, rather than requiring users to manage address keys or deal with complex technical issues like MEV (maximum withdrawable value). Furthermore, CEXs offer a more user-friendly interface, making the experience more accessible to beginners. Currently, CEXs haven't reached user saturation—over 90% of the world's population has yet to enter the cryptocurrency market. When these new users enter the market for the first time, they often choose CEXs.
However, over time, decentralized exchanges are beginning to offer more innovative products, such as early-stage token access. Long-term, I believe cryptocurrency trading will fully migrate on-chain within the next 20, 30, or even 50 years. However, the pace of traditional user onboarding will influence this process. Centralized exchanges will continue to improve, while decentralized exchanges will gradually attract more users. Despite this, centralized exchanges will maintain a significant market share due to their fiat currency access, banking partnerships, and regulatory support. This transition could take decades, if not longer.
host:
So users typically start with centralized exchanges, then delve deeper into cryptocurrencies, and eventually move on to decentralized exchanges. So, what do you think Aster needs to do to truly surpass Hyperliquid?
CZ:
It depends on timing and direction. I believe their positioning and use cases are already different. Hyperliquid is more suited to users who prefer fully public transactions, while Aster focuses on providing a certain degree of privacy. Furthermore, Aster does a better job supporting native asset deposits, such as allowing users to trade with the native Solana token, and supports more blockchains. This openness gives Aster an advantage in certain areas.
It's important to note that both Aster and Hyperliquid are very new projects, having been in development for less than two years. Aster is actually a spinoff of ApolloX, so it has some historical experience, but both are still in their early stages. Competition may see the emergence of more new players in the future, and being first in a market doesn't always guarantee staying ahead. Sometimes, latecomers are able to learn faster and surpass others.
host:
This reminds me of the OpenSea situation. Do you think Hyperliquid is likely to add privacy features? If they do, will that impact Aster's market positioning?
CZ:
Of course, I would recommend that they do so. However, exchange competition isn't solely based on a single feature. Over time, different exchanges develop their own features and concepts, and the visions of their founders often diverge. They imitate each other while also constantly innovating. Furthermore, factors like user protection, error handling, and technical architecture are crucial.
In the future, these exchanges may migrate to L1 blockchains. After this migration, their technology choices, ecosystem appeal, and other factors will determine their long-term success. Therefore, competition is about far more than just a single function. The current stage is just the starting point for their development, and many possibilities remain to be explored.
How DEX competes with CEX
host:
Due to recent controversy, Defi Llama has temporarily suspended tracking of Aster. This was due to a surge in Aster's trading volume, and Defi Llama was unable to determine which of these transactions were genuine and which were fake or wash trades. They decided to suspend tracking until the issue was resolved.
What do you think is the most important metric for measuring the success of a perp exchange? What metrics should people look at to determine which perp DEX (decentralized exchange) is performing better?
CZ:
This isn't a problem that can be measured with a single metric. If one must choose a key indicator, it would be a combination of user numbers and trading volume. This is a long-standing topic of discussion. Even centralized exchanges face similar challenges, such as preventing wash trading.
From an exchange's perspective, determining whether a transaction is valuable primarily depends on the payment of transaction fees. A zero-fee transaction might be a different matter. Airdrops, on the other hand, present a different scenario: users might trade frequently to earn the airdrop rewards, and this incentive mechanism can indeed drive increased trading volume. However, whether such transactions are meaningful depends entirely on the specific circumstances and is a highly subjective question.
For Defi Llama, they can directly state that an airdrop is ongoing, allowing users to understand that some of the trading volume is driven by the airdrop. In fact, airdrops are common among many projects, such as Hyperliquid and Aster, which have both conducted similar campaigns. Therefore, trading volume may be affected by the airdrop, the number of users, and the number of addresses. It is important to note that decentralized exchanges do not have traditional accounts, only addresses. A bot can easily generate thousands of addresses, making it more complicated to calculate the number of users.
Ultimately, users choose exchanges that offer the best trading experience. This typically includes the most liquid platforms, the lowest transaction fees, and the most stable and secure environment. These are the core factors that users truly care about, while other aspects are relatively secondary.
host:
So, how do you define “real trading volume”? Is there a clear standard? What does this concept actually mean?
CZ:
I have some thoughts on this. For most users, if they want to buy $1,000 worth of a token that's available on two exchanges, they'll likely buy $500 each on both platforms. They can then compare the performance of the two exchanges, such as how many tokens they received and what fees were deducted after withdrawing the tokens to their wallets.
CZ's all-in approach to Bitcoin
host:
You have a famous story—over a decade ago, after discovering Bitcoin, you quit your job, invested everything you had in it, even selling your house to fully commit to the space. Today, however, the on-chain transaction landscape is dramatically different, with the average holding time being just 17 seconds, more people eager to trade meme coins, and almost no one willing to hold any asset long-term. You once went all in, investing your entire net worth in Bitcoin, and wrote that you held on for two to three years until the price finally rose. How did you develop this conviction in Bitcoin?
CZ:
It was a gradual process. It took me about six months to gain a deeper understanding of Bitcoin. I first encountered it in July 2013, and by December of that year, I finally realized that this technology would change the future. Building this conviction took time. For me, this wasn't just an investment decision; it was a life choice. I didn't buy Bitcoin with the intention of profiting within a few days, weeks, or months and then exiting. I chose Bitcoin because I believed it represented the future.
Looking back at the internet era, I missed out on so many opportunities when I was young. I was fresh out of college then, and now I'm 35, and in 15 years I'll be 50. I realized that if I didn't seize this opportunity, I might once again miss out on a future-changing technology. Artificial intelligence is a hot topic these days, but at 48, I felt I might be too old to fully participate. But then, at 35, it was perfect timing. I was fortunate to discover Bitcoin and recognize its potential.
Once you have a clear vision for the future, investing in Bitcoin isn't just about short-term profit. I joined because I had a deep faith in the future of this industry. As a technologist and programmer, I was deeply intrigued by Bitcoin's technology and philosophy. If I decided to commit to this industry, I had to go all in. I didn't have much cash at the time, so I quit my job, sold my house, and devoted myself completely to it.
Many people would consider this a high-risk decision, but for me, I had a clear backup plan. If Bitcoin were to go to zero, I could find another IT-related job, earn a six-figure salary, and still live comfortably. So, while I took a significant financial risk, my backup plan was solid.
After I bought Bitcoin, its price fell for two consecutive years, which was truly painful. I kept asking myself, was I truly mistaken, or did people just not realize its value? But I didn't want to sell Bitcoin because I believed in its future. If I did, what else would I do? So I basically held on for 18 months.
Then, Bitcoin started to recover. Once you've experienced the first price cycle, subsequent fluctuations become much easier to tolerate. I bought in during the bear market at $200, and now the price has risen to $3,000. People would ask me, "What are you complaining about?" But now, when the price drops from $120,000 to $115,000, people are worried. I think this is a different understanding of cycles.
host:
When did you make your first million?
CZ:
It was probably around 2017, when the price of Bitcoin was rising. Actually, this was before Binance.
host:
Where were you working in 2016 and 2017?
CZ:
At the time, the price of Bitcoin continued to rise, so I didn't deliberately calculate my profits. Furthermore, my company, BJ Tech, had a stable B2B business, and I was financially independent.
host:
Who do you consider to be the most talented person you have ever worked with or competed against?
CZ:
I've worked with some incredibly smart programmers. My first boss was seven years my senior and a brilliant programmer, but he was also unreliable. He was brilliant when he was focused, but only focused 5% of the time. So while I learned how to be a better programmer from him, I also learned an important lesson: reliability is more important.
host:
You've been involved in trading since the early days of your career, working at Bloomberg and the Tokyo Stock Exchange. Now, as we're talking about BNB and meme coins on Solana, how much have you seen trading patterns change since you first started in this space?
CZ:
The changes are significant. In traditional financial transactions, exchanges typically set up dedicated data centers for co-location. Stock markets are only open four to six hours a day, with morning and afternoon trading sessions, and a pre-market auction. Today, the cryptocurrency market operates 24/7, with transactions occurring every minute and every second, especially for meme coins. While the technology and basic concepts behind trading are similar, the actual content is completely different. This industry has truly undergone significant changes.
Advice for young developers
host:
If you were starting over now, at 23, what would you choose to focus on? Whether it's cryptocurrency, other technologies, or finance. Since there are a lot of young Solana users watching this livestream, what areas do you think they should focus on?
CZ:
I can offer some advice, but please don't blindly follow my advice. First, I would advise young people to get involved in entrepreneurship as early as possible. While office jobs are great, the real opportunities often lie in entrepreneurship. I would join startups early to gain experience, but I would also try to start my own company. Of course, starting a business is risky, so when making a decision, always consider the worst-case scenario. If all else fails, will you still be able to support yourself? That's why you need a backup plan. Having this backup plan will help you maintain your composure and give you more confidence to start your own business.
However, starting a business also requires finding the right time. If you start too early and lack experience, you may face failure. Therefore, young people should avoid acting blindly and ensure they have sufficient preparation and support.
host:
I'm not a fan of the narrative that success has a time limit, like GCR's famous tweet about having only a few years after college to try your best or risk being stuck at the bottom forever. This mentality can lead people to rush into a "heroic trade" to avoid a lifetime of wage labor. What are your thoughts on the younger generation's anxiety about the timeline for success?
CZ:
In reality, there's no time limit for success. I'm a classic example of a counterexample. I founded Binance at 40, and now I'm 48. In the first 20 years of my career, I tried many different things and achieved some success. I went from being an excellent programmer to managing a large organization, but that doesn't mean you have to succeed early on.
In reality, many successful founders aren't young. Statistics show that the average age of founders is over 40. Of course, the entrepreneurial journey often involves failure, but that's part of growing up. My advice is that young people should try early, but at the same time, manage their risks carefully to avoid major setbacks from which they can't recover.
Furthermore, don't be too eager for quick success. We've seen some failures stem from founders being too impatient. While intelligent, they lacked a steady mindset, ultimately leading to failure. Therefore, entrepreneurship requires patience and long-term planning.
host:
Your story is inspiring because it defies the stereotype that success requires a young age. Finally, I'd like to ask you: What do you think about the future of crypto media? Do you have any advice for what I'm doing, like this livestream? As a media company in the crypto industry, how can I succeed in this space?
CZ:
Traditional media is gradually declining, and the industry is undergoing a radical transformation. Social media will become mainstream in the future. Numerous independent media outlets will emerge within social media, some of which could become highly successful, boasting tens or even hundreds of millions of followers and enormous influence. As long as you focus on content quality, the opportunities are enormous.
The emergence of cryptocurrencies also makes micropayments possible. People might be willing to pay a small amount per episode, say 10 cents or 0.1 cents. If your audience is large enough, this model can generate substantial revenue. Furthermore, you can increase revenue through sponsorship deals and other means. Currently, there is a global shortage of strong and credible news sources, and traditional media outlets are no longer able to meet this demand.
Closing Thoughts
host:
As a member of the crypto industry, I'm certainly rooting for your success with BNB and other related projects. Finally, do you have any closing thoughts you'd like to share? For example, what exciting things are you currently working on, or any projects worth keeping an eye on? What are your plans for the future?
CZ:
I don't have much to add, but I will say that the crypto industry's journey has never been smooth sailing. It's a challenging space, full of setbacks and problems. However, I firmly believe that strong founders, excellent projects, and a united community can work together to overcome these difficulties. Problems will always arise, but as long as we work together as a community, we will find solutions.
From personal experience, I've faced many challenges. I've experienced both the industry's highs and its lows and difficult periods. But I always believe that as long as we persist in doing the right thing, maintaining integrity, and helping others rather than harming or defrauding them, this industry will continue to progress. The beauty of the crypto industry lies in its diversity. You can choose to develop a meme token, a utility token, or a security token. Each field has huge potential, which is the strength of crypto technology.
As a builder, I've always believed that the growth of an industry is inseparable from the efforts of builders. Cryptocurrency technology is more advanced than traditional currency technology and holds greater future potential. Although the industry has experienced significant volatility this week, I remain confident in the future. Looking back, these fluctuations are merely temporary; over time, the industry will emerge stronger.
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